Curse

Raziel665 · Mar 09, 2006, 12:12 PM // 12:12

With so many different MM topics about builds and if Heal Area kills minnions faster, it can be hard to remember what you did read and what you didnt read, so I thought I'd just throw it all out.

Manic Smile · Mar 09, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

lol...fair enough...but yea I agree with your points

TKDSamdan · Mar 09, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

I think everyone presented some awesome points here, but it has reached that time where everything is getting repeated. I personally run a N/Mo build with my new MM (only lvl 17) because I don't have V.S. yet, and BoTM and HA are acceptable for the moment. Having a hard rez is nice, especially working with henchies, but isn't always necessary (Granted, I would rather be with a hard rez than a used rez sig when I need it). I will definitely try out different class combos to see what works best for me. I think that's the key element in this whole discussion. What works best for you? Some of us enjoy and use the Monk secondary well, while others despise the Monk secondary and use, say, a Mesmer or Ranger secondary for even better results (for them personally).

This has been stated before. Everyone is different, and everyone has different playing styles. I think that everyone NEEDS to play with other classes as their secondary and not be afraid to take chances. Sure, you can try builds that have been suggested here, but who is to say that is the best one for you? Don't flame other people because they have a different build than you and you disagree with that fact. Recognize that they have something to offer and try to learn from them. I get very tired of people saying things like, "your build sucks smart-ass," or, "you're making an ass of yourself," because it just isn't necessary.

And finally, in the end, it's just a game. Relax and go with it. Who cares really? Not me. We play for fun and a good challenge.

Peace

Eve · Mar 10, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

This is a ridiculous statement and I can only encourage you to re-read the thread to understand why. I could say "If you don't have Heal Area on you skillbar, then you're not a real MM", and it would be closer to the truth.

N/Mo might not be the BEST build, but it's the most optimal anyone's discovered yet. The difference is not small. Why do you have a Mesmer secondary? Are you not using it at all?

Have you tried N/Mo? I have tried N/Me and N/E and N/Mo and N/R. I'm looking forward to trying N/Rt.

Step outside Beetletun and see how far you get solo. Not very far? Either sacced yourself to death, or had to skip a minion heal to regen didn't ya?

Now USE that experience to improve your SF build. Don't be a drain on your monk(s). Use soloing as a gauge to become self-sufficient.

Monks are there to repair DAMAGE, not saccing. If you're using a monk to counteract sacrifices, your doing the same thing as crappy Elementalists who can't manage their own energy and NEED a Necro Battery there to in order to do their JOB!

There are many ways to be a MM. But the whole point of this thread, is that N/Mo provides a serious advantage that the others do not. This is one of the few rare cases in GW where one particular build clearly IS stronger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

OoB is there for the rare times when you need energy now and can't wait.

Example: If you need to cast VS right now, or raise a minion where corpses are highly contested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Well, I explained why. Re-read my last post.

I normally run:

9 Blood
16 Death
9 SR
7 Healing

But I'm trying Manic Smiles suggestion of double superiors, so now I'm:

8 Blood
16 Death
11 SR
8 Healing

I beg to differ what you said. You seemed to be sterotyping MM as necro/monks only. Soul reaping plays a important role in a MM and i guess the experienced MM knows that by now. I shall explain what i mean by the importance of soul reaping here and also that monks are not necessary the optimal secondary class for necros too.

For example necro uses fiends and horrors:
Fiends uses 25 energy to summon and Horrors uses 15 energy to summon. Given such a number, a ideal soul reap number will be 12/13. With a high soul reaping I dont see the need for OOB. Why you may ask?

Common PVE scenario if soul reap is at 13:
Monsters dies (13 energy back from soul reap) -> Necro summons Fiends -> Fiend die (13 energy back from soul reap) -> Monster dies (13 energy gained again) -> Necro summons Horrors -> Horror dies (13 energy gained again)

Lets isolate one cycle:
Fiend die (13 energy gained) -> Next Monster dies -> (13 energ gained) -> 26 energy gained (more than enough energy to cast summon fiend/horror and if you are summon horror while waiting fiend to recharge, excess energy can be used to cast veratas or other spells)

Ok once you understand the cycle, note that once the initial start up costs in terms of energy of first few summons are invested. Everytime your party kills one monster (corpse for you to use) and a fiend/horror dies you have 26 energy back. It becomes a cycle of regaining and investing your energy again. So what I am saying here is that energy needed for the next fiend or horror doesnt come from your energy regen at all. It comes from you soul reaping and hence there is no need for OOB. 26 Energy per cycle is more than enough to summon a fiend, and if necro uses it to summon a horror, the excess can be used for

Soloing is not the only guage for a good MM and Monk is not necessary the optimal secondary build for a MM too. Running MM in PVE depends on suitations. I have run MM with necro/ele with much success too (And no i dont use minion bomb build). With Glyph of Renewal GoR (Ele Elite) I am able to maintain 25+ Summons most of the times in new tombs green farming. Sometimes I dont see necro/monks doing as well as I do. As for the arguement for self healing, i bring along soul feast as there is no lack of corpse in new tombs/uw.

GoR - For 15 seconds, your next spell instantly recharge.
Verata's Sacrifice - Sacrifice10% of maximum health. For 8-18 seconds, all undead allies gain 10 health regeneration. All conditions are removed from those allies and transfered to you. At death 16, its 21 secs.

So whenever I use GoR before I use Veratas (lasts 21 secs), Veratas recharges immediately. It takes 15 secs for GoR to recharge. Once Verata's is up after 15 secs, use GoR and Verata's again. The previous Verata's even have NOT ended and you are able to cast it again. So almost 10HP regen constantly at any time. 10HP regen -> 10 Blips -> 20HP per secs for the duration of veratas (300 HP for 15 secs GoR recharge time). If you use the cycle of GoR and Verata's sacrifice, you should be able to maintain the Verata's up all the time. All summons are experiencing Verata's Sacrifice, but they will still die due to the increasing degen of their HP over time. However using this i am certain that a MM can easily maintain 20+ summons at any one time in the new tombs/uw farming.

I would like all MM to test what they like to use and experience what is most optimal for yourself. I personally believe it is based on your preference, based on the situation and depends on how the party plays too.

Note I am running necro/ele in these pics, they are fiends and horrors:

Carinae · Mar 10, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Your scenario is wrong. The point of N/Mo is to keep them alive as long a possible. This not only delays the second boon from SR due to the minions death, but also consumes additional energy along the way.

I am running with 11 SR as it is. So 11 isn't enough, but 13 is ok? Come on.

Offering isn't required, but it is on-demand energy and helps in crisis situations.

Eve · Mar 11, 2006, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Your scenario is wrong. The point of N/Mo is to keep them alive as long a possible. This not only delays the second boon from SR due to the minions death, but also consumes additional energy along the way.

I am running with 11 SR as it is. So 11 isn't enough, but 13 is ok? Come on.

Offering isn't required, but it is on-demand energy and helps in crisis situations.

Well, the point I am trying to make here is that sterotyping MM as necro/monk is not necessary. I believe that other secondary classes are able to do the job as well. As I posted earlier on, GoR+Verata's Sacrifice works fine for me and some other MMs. As for soul reaping, I guess 11 is fine but as you can see from my pictures, 13 is ideal for my playstyle. I do like to emphasize that what sort of build and secondary class is situational and based your playstyle and preference. It is not necessary to put others down if they do not use necro/monks just because one think its optimal.

Manic Smile · Mar 11, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eve

Well, the point I am trying to make here is that sterotyping MM as necro/monk is not necessary. I believe that other secondary classes are able to do the job as well. As I posted earlier on, GoR+Verata's Sacrifice works fine for me and some other MMs. As for soul reaping, I guess 11 is fine but as you can see from my pictures, 13 is ideal for my playstyle. I do like to emphasize that what sort of build and secondary class is situational and based your playstyle and preference. It is not necessary to put others down if they do not use necro/monks just because one think its optimal.

It isn't their play style that I have issue with but their blanket, incorrect statements made with a superior attitude...I'm not even going to bother going back through and quoting the posts I am refering to as I think you can find them yourselves. Any honest discussion brought forth without attitude, I feel I have responded to with an honest attempt at seeing both sides. But for the sake of sorting out differing opinions/playstyles from efficient vs. inefficient builds lets play Greek logic.

A. We are discussing the Minnion Master as it pretains to PvE.

B. The purpose of the Minnion Master is to: (in decending order)
1.) Get up the highest level minnions possible
2.) Keep the minnions alive as long as possible
3.) Get up as many minnions as possible
4.) Do as much as he can to keep himself alive
5.) Get up the minnions as fast as possible
6.) Provide as little drain on the rest of the party as possible
7.) Provided as much aditional party support as possible

I feel we can all agree that the ability to raise the highest level minnion possible belongs on the top of this list...not one poster has suggested we use Necro as a sub class and with good reason. Minnion level effects minnion damage, life and indirectly, the ease at which a minnion can be maintained over prolonged periods of time. < 16 Death is simply not a real consideration for a Minnion Master at this time in PvE.

I think it is clear from the responses/arguments/posts/flames/rubbish that here in lies the biggest disagreement with what a Minnion Master is/does. I think clear imperical data can be gathered to show that under any case an equally skilled /mo Minnion Master can keep alive his minnions longer then a equally skilled non-/mo Minnion Master. The issue then lies in whether or not keeping the minnions alive the longest belongs in the number 2 position or if it is relevant/significant at all. So why don't we try focusing our discussion here. How does this sound to community interested in this? Lets start writing a real guide with real information...be it of /mo or /whatever but with facts and educated, supported opinion instead of just watered down bs.

Obvioulsy as it is ordered now it lends strongly to the /mo > /ra > /e or /me > /rest but perhaps we can seperate those that feel the order is different and hence the ranking of efficient sub orders would be different from those that simply do not understand what they are doing.

thisissayantan · Mar 12, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

I use N/ME for my Minion Master. I have been told by many traditional peeps, that it's a very wierd combo. But N/Me MM has it's advantages.

16 Death magic
13 soul reaping
rest in inspiration

Echo{E}
Animate Bone Fiend
Death Nova
Blood of the Master
Verata's Sacrifice
Power Drain
Channeling
Ether Lord/Inspired Hex

Altho it is not the easiest of builds to play, I have found it very useful.

LokiCai · Mar 20, 2006, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Taste of death will keep you from embarassing yourself in tight situations. You don't want to be killed when there are 10+ bone fiend/bone horros around you and see them turning against your team. Offering of blood is a waste of energy and time, not to mention the points that you have to put into blood. It takes 15 seconds to recharge and only allows you to animate one more bone fiend/horror at the cost of your Hp. 16 death, 11 soul reaping and the rest into healing with healing area. With healing area, BoM and VS, you can maintain your minions as long as you like. But once into battle, they still die fast if the degen has reached certain number. Tainted flesh(E) or rotten flesh is much more effective at lvl 16 death for attack. The disease spread out really fast.

Manic Smile · Mar 20, 2006, 10:49 AM // 10:49

*sigh* At least kinda read the prior posts...

Quote: